Back On The Internet

Well..a few months back I was able to resurrect a very important friendship to me. In so doing I started participating more on my discussion lists sub_den and Dom_sub on yahoogroups. I also joined a few other lists that my friend suggested. For the first time in 7 years I have been able to post as freely as I used to, without losing my train of thought under a sense of fear or anything else. It felt great. I enjoyed participating again, and was not only willing but able to contribute my thoughts, experiences and feelings like I did before.

However, I was expecting mailing lists to be similar to what they were a few years ago. I did expect variations upon rules with each list, that is perfectly normal. What I did not expect was to find that the very rules that have governed acceptable posts to a mailing list, no longer did. I put forth great effort to not attack a person and to word things solely to the idea presented. It is very rare that I fail. I created a post to a list and here it is (removed the words that were not mine )

I changed the topic from an introduction to "No Hesitation or Reservation", the ideal I was speaking to.

This is an ideal I have seen many many times. By this ideal anyone who second guesses their owner, has any reservation whatsoever about an order or rule, is not a slave. This could not be further from the truth in my experience. In reality there are going to be times where the slave has reservations or hesitation or outright disagrees with their owner. Some times those reactions on the part of the slave will be there for very good reason, and sometimes they won't..but they will occur.

This ideal ignores one basic truth of m/s, we are still human. Being a slave does not render us incapable of thinking for ourselves, forming our own opinions or having our own ideas of what is correct in a given situation and what is not. Being an owner of a slave does not somehow miraculously remove human fallibility, failings, or the very human ability of making a bad choice. To expect that an m/s relationship somehow elevates a dominant to the status of omniscient and omnipresent is to set oneself up for some major hurt. To expect that an m/s relationship will somehow make one less prone to be annoyed by stuff that has always annoyed them, is to set an unrealistic expectation that can't be met. An owner is very capable of making a bad decision, or making a decision without having all the facts. Each of us has our strong points and our faults, being involved in m/s does not somehow erase those faults.

If having someone leave wet towels on the bathroom floor after a shower annoys you, then it will still annoy you as a slave. It may take a little longer to annoy you, being able to appease it with "serving him/her" statements, but eventually the day will come where bending over to pick up that towel causes the same angry thoughts it used to cause. Being involved in an m/s relationship does not somehow miraculously make our pet peeves stop being pet peeves. Having those reactions does not make one less of a slave or not a slave at all, it makes them human.


In many cases, and in many situations, a slave will serve and obey without hesitation or reservation. However, having the level of trust that this requires takes time to develop. It takes alot of time. But, it does not mean that there will never be a situation where hesitation or reservation occurs.

raven{Az}

This email was not approved by the list owner. I was told that she felt it ws attacking a person because I left the quote that prompted my thoughts at the top of my post. I was told that if I remove the quote and create a new subject, the post would be approved. Well, I had already created a new subject by changing the subject line of the email to the topic at hand, so I left that mostly the same adding only the word Ideals. I edite the post to read as below:

I have read almost every email that has gone through this list since I joined it a few weeks ago. I have repeatedly seen the same judgemental rhetoric spouted many times, judgemental in that it states "only such and such is a true slave". These ideals, while romantic and really sweet and something many of us strive to achieve, lack a realistic base and in fact can set up someone who is new to the lifetsyle to have expectations that are not realistic and thus they get hurt (be it physically or emotionally). Some of those ideals are things such as a slave should obey without any hesitation and or reservations at all.

This is an ideal I have seen many many times. By this ideal anyone who second guesses their owner, has any reservation whatsoever about an order or rule, is not a slave. This could not be further from the truth in my experience. In reality there are going to be times where the slave has reservations or hesitation or outright disagrees with their owner. Some times those reactions on the part of the slave will be there for very good reason, and sometimes they won't..but they will occur.

This ideal ignores one basic truth of m/s, we are still human. Being a slave does not render us incapable of thinking for ourselves, forming our own opinions or having our own ideas of what is correct in a given situation and what is not. Being an owner of a slave does not somehow miraculously remove human fallibility, failings, or the very human ability of making a bad choice. To expect that an m/s relationship somehow elevates a dominant to the status of omniscient and omnipresent is to set oneself up for some major hurt. To expect that an m/s relationship will somehow make one less prone to be annoyed by stuff that has always annoyed them, is to set an unrealistic expectation that can't be met. An owner is very capable of making a bad decision, or making a decision without having all the facts. Each of us has our strong points and our faults, being involved in m/s does not somehow erase those faults.

If having someone leave wet towels on the bathroom floor after a shower annoys you, then it will still annoy you as a slave. It may take a little longer to annoy you, being able to appease it with "serving him/her" statements, but eventually the day will come where bending over to pick up that towel causes the same angry thoughts it used to cause. Being involved in an m/s relationship does not somehow miraculously make our pet peeves stop being pet peeves. Having those reactions does not make one less of a slave or not a slave at all, it makes them human.


In many cases, and in many situations, a slave will serve and obey without hesitation or reservation. However, having the level of trust that this requires takes time to develop. It takes alot of time. But, it does not mean that there will never be a situation where hesitation or reservation occurs.


raven{Az}

Basically I had reached my tolerance limit for overly romanticized flowery ideals that have little to no basis in day to day reality, and was tired of the judgemental nature in which those ideals had been stated. Many many times the words "A true slave " or "A real slave " were stated as the one true way. The problem is many of those ideals, while great to strive for, are not something people can achieve every single moment of every single day. To ignore that fact, the basic humanity of slaves, is to set a novice up for some serious self-doubt, recrimination, self resentment and other major issues by leading them to believe that if they ever hesitate, have a reservation, question, get upsert or in any other way behave as a human being then they are not a slave.

These are ideals I have seen spouted many many times, most frequently and vehemently by someone who does not actually live within an m/s relationship as their partner does not live with them, the times spent together vary from weekly, to yearly. It is alot easier to maintain that flowery ideal of perfect submission for a few short hours once in a while, than it is to maintain it every single day under every condition life throws at us.

I have seen far too many wonderful people torture themselves because they did not live up to the ideal that was shoved down their throats as "proper slavery" by some part time slave. I have seen whole relationships crumble because the slave's self doubt became so strong that it was self-defeating and self-destructive.

Years ago when people spouting this rhetoric showed up on mailing lists, they were quickly culled out and people recognized them for what they were. But now, it seems they have their groupies who see them as the epitomy of perfect submission and slavery. It amazes me how much time is spent on those lists patting the "owner" on the back for being such a wonderful slave as well. I realize that any person can find a group of people to follow them and believe in them, and I realize this was bound to happen, but it still annoys the hell out of me. And I don't have to be all "list pc" on my blog.

I know I could leave those lists also, but for now I feel staying does the others on the list better than my leaving because I can offer them a more realistic view of slavery. Romance and ideals have their place, but when one puts forth that their intention is to teach about the lifestyle, then that intention requires that they teach the truth, the reality..not just the romanticized ideals.

raven{Az}