More online bullshit

Well, yet again someone is trying to discredit me by telling half truths and contradictions. I had to kick/ban someone from my submissives only group for breaking both list rules and the terms of service of yahoo groups. I don't enjoy doing that, but I will do it when I have to.

Yahoo does not allow a group owner/moderator to send unwanted invitations to people, they consider it spam and it is against their TOS. It was brought to my attention by a few people on my list (one of whom had only been there 9 days or so, and was only on my list as it was the only one she had found [through LnR]) that they were receiving unwanted spam invitations to join another group. I asked that they send me a full copy of the invitation so I could see who was doing it. As soon as I found out who it was, I posted about it and banned the person, as I have done to every other person that I found harvesting email addresses and spamming my members in the 12 years my groups have existed. When I found out who it was I was a bit hurt and angry because it was someone I had thought highly of and never thought they'd do this, but they did.

Once she was banned I received two private emails from her partner (I'll call him John Doe). The first wasn't too bad, the second was getting worse and I replied politely telling him why I had banned her. The third email he sent in response was pretty dang bad and filled with insults and things that did not need to be said. I did not respond to this third email figuring to do so would simply cause trouble.

No one on my list discussed this other list, its owners, moderators or members. We moved on to discussing how to swallow cum. I started to receive private emails from people who were telling me what John Doe was saying on his list. He posted a totally unnecessary diatribe of lies and smoke screens to his list, badmouthing me and my list. I am not a member of his list so am not there to defend myself. When someone did defend me they were banned from the list.

I decided that despite my not being on his list anymore, I would respond to his statements here. He asked many questions that are designed to turn the discussion into an argument over things that do not pertain to the subject at hand; the banning of his girlfriend.

His girl (Jane Doe) was banned from my list for spamming people and nothing more than that. It had not been done sooner (she has been on the list since 2005, but never really participated) as no one had complained to me until last week. As soon as it was brought to my attention, I acted, simple as that.

John then posted about how they had not been online in over a week and that Jane had not gone into any group in months. A paragraph later he then stated that Jane went through her backlog of email (since they are set to receive individual emails from many groups, mine included..this means she read group mail, so she went "on the group"), found some interesting people and sent them invites. He posts this 3 separate times, followed again by his statement that she hadn't been on a group in months. Well, you can't have it both ways. This is a direct contradiction but more importantly, it is also a direct admission of guilt.

Despite his contradiction, in three separate posts, he made it clear that Jane did indeed break my list rules and Yahoo TOS. This is exactly why she was banned, nothing more. By sending invites to interesting people one finds through email messages from group emails, one is harvesting the email address off of a group email and then spamming the person with an unwanted invitation. He admits she did this. When I became aware she was doing it, I banned her.

So my response is: Since she did it, what is the big deal? Why did this warrant a rant on his list about all kinds of stuff that did not pertain to the situation at all? Why turn it into a huge drama that it did not need to be? I just don't get it.

As for his other accusations they were made solely to divert attention away from the matter at hand, that his girlfriend broke yahoo TOS and the rules of my list and was banned for it. There was no need for all the mudslinging bullshit that he threw out after that.

Interesting..he posts a major rant, calling up unnecessary crap, providing only a quarter of the truth all to cast the attention away from the behavior of his girlfriend; yet he says I am a drama queen? Pardon me while I continue to laugh myself silly over this...ROFLMAO

BDSM as a religion?

"Mainly what we are trying to show is that this is not a religion or religious practice, therefor we are not the atheist we have been accused of being for not believing or practicing BDSM.. "

Personally I am unclear as to how they got the idea that someone thinks bdsm is a religion, but so be it. Other statements were made to the effect that bdsm is not part of any religion out there, nor are power exchanges.

I do not see bdsm as a religion. However, I do understand how one can reconcile their religious beliefs and their desire for a power exchange relationship. Most often these quotes from the bible are used in this manner:

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord

1 Peter 3:1-6In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands, even those who refuse to accept the Good News. Your godly lives will speak to them better than any words. They will be won overYour beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight . That is the way the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands. For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, when she called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.

Also, Southern Baptists adopted a declaration back in 1998 which stated that a wife must submit to her husband in all things. This declaration used the same quotes above as proof for this. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02EED8123AF933A25755C0A96E958260

I believe that the reason this whole topic was raised (and thrown in my face) was because one person repeated that the Southern Baptists had made such a declaration and that it makes those relationships very similar (if not the same) as power exchange ones (domination/submission or master/slave).

I do not see how bdsm in and of itself can be termed a religion, but I do see how some people need to reconcile their religion to their chosen relationship style and those bible quotes (as well as the Southern Baptist declaration) makes such reconciliation easy.

"See Exhibit B052108_Exhibit_B_RoseSpeaks.pd fandhttp://annanicoleandhowardkstern.com/051308_A... Rose says: May 16th, 2008 at 2:54 am BTW while I am venting here is McCabe saying he is NOT the head of his household so therefore my faith and beliefs that the husband is the head of the household makes me “porn”… ggggggeeeeeessssssshhhhh is McCabe upset because I follow my religious faith and beleive that God wants me to defer to my husband on certain things… WHY is my religious faith even at question here and are all of those women slamming me saying they are atheists or just that they would NEVER let their husband be the head of the house? Why don’t they put up or shut up… why don’t they answer… are all of the women the head of their households and they fear that some of us who still follow our religious beliefs should be destroyed for that… so is McCabe saying I must be hated because I am not an atheist but follow my God’s teachings??"

This is not saying that bdsm is a religion, it is saying that deferring to one's husband is part of the person's religious faith. The quotes from the bible above support this belief, as does the baptist declaration from 1998. These people twisted this post (which was not even on their forum in the first place, but an entirely different one) to say that Rose believes bdsm to be a religion. Sad how some people can't read English very well.

Disability In BDSM

(Hopefully she wasn't abused, even willingly. We are seeing that most of these women are "Disabled" and it's not difficult to arrive at WHY. Very sad indeed.) This statement is basically saying that disability is a result of bdsm. This is so far from the truth as to be totally laughable.

I am disabled due to having given birth to a baby that was too large to pass through my pelvis easily and passing her caused extensive damage to my pelvis. Further I have degenerative disc disease which has affected two discs in my lower back resulting in bad discs and a great deal of nerve damage. Having my second child put further damage to my pelvis resulting in a fusion becoming necessary. The fusion failed leaving me with a permanent compound fracture of the left sacroiliac joint (part of the pelvis). This has had nothing at all to do with my lifestyle choices, engaging in bdsm play activities, or being a slave.

I know others in bdsm who are disabled due to diabetes complications, birth defects, auto accidents and surgical errors. I also know a large number of people who are not disabled at all yet are still involved in bdsm.

There is no proof that bdsm leaves people disabled or that disabled people are more drawn to bdsm than able bodied people. In fact, going solely by the numbers, I would have to say that the opposite is true (more able bodied people are involved in bdsm than disabled people).

Educating Others About BDSM

I went to a site yesterday because they had part of my essay on begging posted. It was a "discussion" forum based on Anna Nicole Smith and everything surrounding her and her death. A friend of mine had been posting there and one of the posters found out about her interest in bdsm. They went to her bdsm site and followed the links, which landed them on my site. They they took part of my begging article, which has nothing to do with the topic they were supposed to be discussing, and posted it with comments such as "These people are f'ed!" and similar comments (some worse). I politely requested that my essay be removed as it was used without my permission. This, of course, prompted them to hit back with "fair use". I went through the requirements of fair use to show how the way they used the essay did not meet those requirements and thus by taking it without permission it was copyright violation.
Well, they proceeded to directly attack me, my chosen lifestyle and relationship. What annoyed me was they deliberately asked questions that I knew they did not truly want the answers to. I was good and did not reply to any attacks, insults, threats or what have you. I posted solely to the topic of my essay and copyright, and in response to someone wishing me well and asking me a whether or not I was the same Raven that posts on a political site (which I am not.) One of the members then chose to do some research and posted my real name to the forum, making it quite clear that she has my information and veiled threats of using it. This does not scare me.
Part of me really wanted to answer the statements they made, but I knew better than to do it on their forum. So instead, I will list the questions that were asked and answer them here where they might do some real good.

Updating This Blog & Thoughts

I have revamped this blog and I like the layout much better. I have also added labels to the entries, but I have not gone back and labeled every post that is in the archive but I will try to do that over the next couple weeks. I'm going to try to blog a little more often even if it is just a re-write of an old essay.

I mistakenly posted my real thoughts on a discussion list today on a topic that I knew would cause a bit of an uproar. Some posted the list of "Submissive Rights" that has been making its way around the internet for the 11 years I have been online. This, of course, raised the topic of whether or not a submissive/slave has the right to just up and leave at any time to get out of a relationship. Legally speaking, everyone has that right in most countries. BDSM however is not exactly legal and relies heavily on people deciding for themselves what they want to do or not do. I believe that this includes the ability for someone to decide that within their relationship they do not have the right to just up and leave at any time despite what the law says. I do not see this as any different from people deciding that engaging in bondage and sadomasochistic play is okay despite the laws that say these activities are illegal. The statement was made that no one really believes they can't just up and leave and this is where I was stupid. I replied that human beings can convince themselves of anything if they want to and because of this ability they can convince themselves that they no longer have the right to just walk out.

Of course the responses I got were ones I expected, but they do still annoy me. The responses were:

1. Those who believe this are living in a fantasy world
2. Those who believe this have little to no real life experience
3. Those who believe this are abused or setting themselves up to be abused
4. Those who say things like this are online only.

These particular responses arise frequently on many different topics. The problem is what I said is true. Human beings can convince themselves of anything if they want to. If a person tells himself over and over that they are a bad person, they will eventually believe it no matter how much proof there is to the contrary. I stated that these responses are very judgmental specially when coupled with an expressed desire that anyone who says something like I did should be shaken and set straight.

Anyway, in my relationship I gave up the right to just walk out at any time. Master stated that he preferred a "grace period" (so to speak). If I ever feel like I want to end the relationship I have to give him 90 days to try and work things out before I leave. If, after the 90 days are up, I still feel that the only option is to end the relationship then I will be released and free to leave. Because of this I can honestly say that I do not have the right to just up and walk out at any time. Legally I can do so and I know that, but my emotions do not believe it. I am bound by the vow I made when I submitted to his desires in this area and this overrides the law in my eyes (same as our many reasons for engaging in s/m activities). This is not fantasy, it is my life. This was done for a few reasons

1. we believe that people see relationships as disposable and leave too easily sometimes (not always so don't inundate me with hate mail)
2. we made a commitment to each other and any decision to end the relationship should not be made during a time of emotional upheaval
3. we have children and our separating affects them also and this has to be taken into consideration

There are other reasons but they are more personal and I do not feel comfortable sharing them here but the three I have shared are more than enough in my opinion to explain why I felt comfortable submitting to that particular desire. Just because a person knows something intellectually does not mean their emotions agree with it nor does it mean that they have to behave that way if they do not believe it is right for them.

To me, part of being a slave means I give everything to my owner; my body, my belongings, and my rights. This is not a decision that anyone should ever make lightly and it is not one I made lightly. I was not forced to do this but this is just what works for me. Had I withheld things from the control of my master I would not, in my own opinion, be a slave; I would be a submissive. I have tried living as a submissive and keeping certain areas “off limits” to the control of my dominant, it does not work for me. What does work is giving it all to my owner and living by his rules, guidelines, expectations, orders etc. If he, in turn, decides that certain areas are mine to handle then I handle them, but he still has final say and can change things around or override a decision I have made. He wanted that 90 day caveat. His reasoning for it made good sense to me and I agreed with his reasoning, thus I felt comfortable submitting in this area as well.

What it seems people do not understand on mailing lists is that when someone says something like I did today that it is not always spoken by a novice who has learned about bdsm mostly online. They don’t seem to take into consideration what they know of the person who posted the statement. I have posted many times and in many forums how careful I was before submitting to the depth that I wanted to and being collared as a slave. I weighed everything carefully before deciding that I could submit this way to this man and I am not alone. There are many people out there, involved in m/s relationships, who were just as careful in their submission. I can understand people being skeptical and wanting to help a novice learn, but when a statement like the one I made is made by someone who is not a novice it should not receive the response it did.

Well that’s it for today.

Things I am thankful for: my children, my master, lower pain level

Communication On Lists and My Day

Old Hats and Novices

I brought up the topic of old hats and how they are perceived on my discussion lists because I thought it would make an interesting topic. I was also hoping to see some new faces posting, giving their ideas and opinions on how they read the posts that are put up by old hats. Someone brought up a point I had not really thought of very much, but I have to admit that he has a good point and I have experienced similar many times online, just this time I’ve run into the idealists more frequently then the other. I figure its just a matter of time until I see the other side of the coin as well.

Anyway, he mentioned that he has seen many people who do post in a very bitter, cold hearted, derogatory, and condescending manner to the novices. Rather than admitting that ideals can be goals, something we strive for, and tempering that with some examples of how those ideals don’t always work too well, they just throw out the worst things they can think of or outright insult the one who is speaking in ideals. Such behavior will make it very difficult for novices to feel comfortable posting, asking questions, or to learn anything. It will make people defensive and dig in their heels.

I can understand why someone would become bitter and cold if life has been very difficult for them. But I can’t help wondering why they would then want to participate in a discussion list where the idea is to learn from one another, share ideas and opinions and things like that. For me, when bitterness was something I felt frequently, I was not very open to new ideas and someone speaking in flowery romanticized language just annoyed the heck out of me. I stopped participating in discussion lists because I knew I could not really discuss anything and I was far from open to new ideas or ways of looking at things. What would be the point to be constantly tossing out such bitterness onto a discussion list? To use the really bad experiences one went through as proof that bdsm is a bad thing, or what?

He also mentioned that an argument that has popped up frequently on lists lately is the one over “whose relationship is more real?”. I have witnessed one such discussion of this topic since I started posting to lists again, and a few of the opinions expressed struck me as condescending, but the list was a moderated one so I am sure that some posts did not make it to the list, thus I don’t think I got a very good view of how this argument has been playing out. However, the bit I did see was what he said he has seen. People saying that only live-in 24/7 relationships are real and anything else is a fantasy. People saying that there is no way any power exchange relationship can be done in a long distance relationship or through a computer. Saying things like that defeats the whole purpose of discussion because it makes it very clear that the poster is not open to even considering that another option exists, or that maybe this does work for other people, and they certainly do not appear as if they truly want to try and learn more or understand the other point of view. I can see how such posting styles would very easily cause those who are focusing only on the ideals to hold onto those ideals ever tighter.

It seems sad to me that so many people believe saying things in a polite manner somehow removes the conviction from their opinion, thus they feel they are correct to speak as rudely as they want, or to be condescending. Saying something like “As I have no experience with online relationships, I have a hard time understanding how they could be as real as a relationship where the people live together.” Gets the point across without the direct insult of “online relationships are not real”. It is less combative and more open to real discussion of the topic and the possibility of learning how someone else might believe an online relationship is real.

All of us can only really speak from our experiences, to what works for us and how we came to those conclusions. Sure we can give options of other ways of doing things, but we can’t speak to those things from experience. If the whole point is discussion and learning from one another, then speaking in a way that encourages discussion rather than shuts it down completely would make more logical sense to me.

Wow, blogging two days in a row..it’s a miracle! LOL Today was a good day for me, my pain level is in better control thanks to another series of injections to the disks and the joint, though today I have that “its going to rain” ache going on it is not as bad as it was before the shots. This makes me very happy!! As usual I got an email from master giving me the tasks he wanted me to do in addition to my usual daily activities. He wanted me to clean the bedroom today, which I did. I’ve managed to keep up with the laundry, keep the boy child’s school work going, play games with the boy child, talk with the girl children, cook dinner, post to a few lists, and get everything done I was supposed to do today. I feel real good about it and when master got home he walked into the bedroom and just started smiling, which made me feel even better! Today has been a good day. :)

raven{Az}

Back On The Internet

Well..a few months back I was able to resurrect a very important friendship to me. In so doing I started participating more on my discussion lists sub_den and Dom_sub on yahoogroups. I also joined a few other lists that my friend suggested. For the first time in 7 years I have been able to post as freely as I used to, without losing my train of thought under a sense of fear or anything else. It felt great. I enjoyed participating again, and was not only willing but able to contribute my thoughts, experiences and feelings like I did before.

However, I was expecting mailing lists to be similar to what they were a few years ago. I did expect variations upon rules with each list, that is perfectly normal. What I did not expect was to find that the very rules that have governed acceptable posts to a mailing list, no longer did. I put forth great effort to not attack a person and to word things solely to the idea presented. It is very rare that I fail. I created a post to a list and here it is (removed the words that were not mine )

I changed the topic from an introduction to "No Hesitation or Reservation", the ideal I was speaking to.

This is an ideal I have seen many many times. By this ideal anyone who second guesses their owner, has any reservation whatsoever about an order or rule, is not a slave. This could not be further from the truth in my experience. In reality there are going to be times where the slave has reservations or hesitation or outright disagrees with their owner. Some times those reactions on the part of the slave will be there for very good reason, and sometimes they won't..but they will occur.

This ideal ignores one basic truth of m/s, we are still human. Being a slave does not render us incapable of thinking for ourselves, forming our own opinions or having our own ideas of what is correct in a given situation and what is not. Being an owner of a slave does not somehow miraculously remove human fallibility, failings, or the very human ability of making a bad choice. To expect that an m/s relationship somehow elevates a dominant to the status of omniscient and omnipresent is to set oneself up for some major hurt. To expect that an m/s relationship will somehow make one less prone to be annoyed by stuff that has always annoyed them, is to set an unrealistic expectation that can't be met. An owner is very capable of making a bad decision, or making a decision without having all the facts. Each of us has our strong points and our faults, being involved in m/s does not somehow erase those faults.

If having someone leave wet towels on the bathroom floor after a shower annoys you, then it will still annoy you as a slave. It may take a little longer to annoy you, being able to appease it with "serving him/her" statements, but eventually the day will come where bending over to pick up that towel causes the same angry thoughts it used to cause. Being involved in an m/s relationship does not somehow miraculously make our pet peeves stop being pet peeves. Having those reactions does not make one less of a slave or not a slave at all, it makes them human.


In many cases, and in many situations, a slave will serve and obey without hesitation or reservation. However, having the level of trust that this requires takes time to develop. It takes alot of time. But, it does not mean that there will never be a situation where hesitation or reservation occurs.

raven{Az}

This email was not approved by the list owner. I was told that she felt it ws attacking a person because I left the quote that prompted my thoughts at the top of my post. I was told that if I remove the quote and create a new subject, the post would be approved. Well, I had already created a new subject by changing the subject line of the email to the topic at hand, so I left that mostly the same adding only the word Ideals. I edite the post to read as below:

I have read almost every email that has gone through this list since I joined it a few weeks ago. I have repeatedly seen the same judgemental rhetoric spouted many times, judgemental in that it states "only such and such is a true slave". These ideals, while romantic and really sweet and something many of us strive to achieve, lack a realistic base and in fact can set up someone who is new to the lifetsyle to have expectations that are not realistic and thus they get hurt (be it physically or emotionally). Some of those ideals are things such as a slave should obey without any hesitation and or reservations at all.

This is an ideal I have seen many many times. By this ideal anyone who second guesses their owner, has any reservation whatsoever about an order or rule, is not a slave. This could not be further from the truth in my experience. In reality there are going to be times where the slave has reservations or hesitation or outright disagrees with their owner. Some times those reactions on the part of the slave will be there for very good reason, and sometimes they won't..but they will occur.

This ideal ignores one basic truth of m/s, we are still human. Being a slave does not render us incapable of thinking for ourselves, forming our own opinions or having our own ideas of what is correct in a given situation and what is not. Being an owner of a slave does not somehow miraculously remove human fallibility, failings, or the very human ability of making a bad choice. To expect that an m/s relationship somehow elevates a dominant to the status of omniscient and omnipresent is to set oneself up for some major hurt. To expect that an m/s relationship will somehow make one less prone to be annoyed by stuff that has always annoyed them, is to set an unrealistic expectation that can't be met. An owner is very capable of making a bad decision, or making a decision without having all the facts. Each of us has our strong points and our faults, being involved in m/s does not somehow erase those faults.

If having someone leave wet towels on the bathroom floor after a shower annoys you, then it will still annoy you as a slave. It may take a little longer to annoy you, being able to appease it with "serving him/her" statements, but eventually the day will come where bending over to pick up that towel causes the same angry thoughts it used to cause. Being involved in an m/s relationship does not somehow miraculously make our pet peeves stop being pet peeves. Having those reactions does not make one less of a slave or not a slave at all, it makes them human.


In many cases, and in many situations, a slave will serve and obey without hesitation or reservation. However, having the level of trust that this requires takes time to develop. It takes alot of time. But, it does not mean that there will never be a situation where hesitation or reservation occurs.


raven{Az}

Basically I had reached my tolerance limit for overly romanticized flowery ideals that have little to no basis in day to day reality, and was tired of the judgemental nature in which those ideals had been stated. Many many times the words "A true slave " or "A real slave " were stated as the one true way. The problem is many of those ideals, while great to strive for, are not something people can achieve every single moment of every single day. To ignore that fact, the basic humanity of slaves, is to set a novice up for some serious self-doubt, recrimination, self resentment and other major issues by leading them to believe that if they ever hesitate, have a reservation, question, get upsert or in any other way behave as a human being then they are not a slave.

These are ideals I have seen spouted many many times, most frequently and vehemently by someone who does not actually live within an m/s relationship as their partner does not live with them, the times spent together vary from weekly, to yearly. It is alot easier to maintain that flowery ideal of perfect submission for a few short hours once in a while, than it is to maintain it every single day under every condition life throws at us.

I have seen far too many wonderful people torture themselves because they did not live up to the ideal that was shoved down their throats as "proper slavery" by some part time slave. I have seen whole relationships crumble because the slave's self doubt became so strong that it was self-defeating and self-destructive.

Years ago when people spouting this rhetoric showed up on mailing lists, they were quickly culled out and people recognized them for what they were. But now, it seems they have their groupies who see them as the epitomy of perfect submission and slavery. It amazes me how much time is spent on those lists patting the "owner" on the back for being such a wonderful slave as well. I realize that any person can find a group of people to follow them and believe in them, and I realize this was bound to happen, but it still annoys the hell out of me. And I don't have to be all "list pc" on my blog.

I know I could leave those lists also, but for now I feel staying does the others on the list better than my leaving because I can offer them a more realistic view of slavery. Romance and ideals have their place, but when one puts forth that their intention is to teach about the lifestyle, then that intention requires that they teach the truth, the reality..not just the romanticized ideals.

raven{Az}